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Although I was aboriginal acquainted of the capital M/E/A/N/I/N/G in the aboriginal 1990s, a biannual advertisement absorption on issues of feminism and painting from assorted agnostic perspectives (edited by Susan Bee and Mira Schor, arise amid 1986 and 1996 in print, and online from 2001 to 2016), it was alone afterwards that I met the painter Susan Bee through the backward Nancy Spero, who was both Susan’s and my acquaintance and mentor, at the aperture accession of Nancy’s able display The War Alternation 1966-1970 at Galerie Lelong in 2003. Admittingly, I didn’t get to apperceive Susan and her assignment until 2007, abnormally afterwards accepting apprehend Geoffrey Cruickshank-Hagenbuckle’s article on Susan arise in the May 2007 affair of the Rail. I still bethink Geoffrey’s haiku description, “Susan Bee’s paintings are a aboriginal mix of Expressionism and Pop schadenfreude busy by cut-and-paste pictures.” Subsequently, on the break of her eighth one-person display at A.I.R. Gallery, Pow! New Paintings (March 16-April 16, 2017) at A.I.R. Gallery, I assuredly was able to accept a diffuse chat with Susan in advanced of a alive admirers at the arcade (Saturday, March 25, 2017). The afterward is its edited adaptation forth with an added chat from my contempo appointment to Susan’s Brooklyn collapsed afore her accessible display Anywhere Out of the World: New Paintings, 2017–2020 (postponed because of the coronavirus crisis) at A.I.R. Gallery.

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Phong Bui (Rail): I’d like to activate with your painting, which is abashed on the bank at the Rail HQ, blue-blooded The Quarrel, corrective in 1983, oil on linen. It’s a aboveboard and baby format, abstinent 12 × 12 inches, depicting a man and a woman in profile, battle with anniversary other, adapted in the average of the beheld field. One advertence could be Charles and Susan. [Laughter] Or not! Conceivably two fabulous characters we don’t absolutely know. All I apperceive is I see it every day, and it’s consistently accustomed me such pleasure, yet at the aforementioned time I consistently am abashed by it. Aloft all, the activity generated from the painting is intense, partly because while the abstracts are corrective confidently, collapsed and thin, the accomplishments is thickly and actively corrective with an all-embracing circuitous arrangement of adventurous curve and aberrant atramentous shapes. It’s a amazing bucking that lies amid all-overs and gaiety. Conceivably it’s both composure and innocence, which reminds me of what our acquaintance Bill Jensen said already about Robert Ryman: “He’s the best adult and the best innocent painter I apperceive alive today.” I should additionally add that in accession to actuality committed to your work, you, like your acquaintance and painter Mira Schor, calm co-founded and co-edited the capital M/E/A/N/I/N/G magazine, which lasted from …

Bee: It was arise for 10 years as a printed journal: 1986-1996, afresh online till 2016. We additionally did M/E/A/N/I/N/G: An Anthology of Artists’ Writings, Theory, and Criticism, arise by Duke University Press in 2000, and afresh in December 2016 afterwards Trump won, we did our final online issue, #7. We aloof anticipation “Ok, we’ve had our say and we’re casual the billy to you guys, the Brooklyn Rail.”

Rail: Whaaat! [Laughter] Acknowledge you so much. Afore I alpha I would like to accompany up adapted astute observations that were accounting by Raphael Rubinstein, David Shapiro, Johanna Drucker, amid others. Raphael thought, for example, that your assignment lies in amid the accustomed and the strange, which manifests in the use of actual and images. David Shapiro referred to your adroitness of amusement in how you assume to be abominably or anachronistically antic with your repertoire of images, and how to compose them and whatnot. You advance in the absorption of painting the amplitude amid the abstracts and the objects. Johanna Drucker said that you command a adroitness of chaos and resistance, which is arise in how you advisedly assignment in assorted techniques and materials: painting, collage, works on paper, artist’s books, and so on. Let’s alpha with The Quarrel in advertence to the decade of the ’80s.

Bee: The Quarrel is a acceptable archetype of aback I alternating to allegorical painting. Otherwise, while I was in alum academy at Hunter College from 1975-1977, breadth I got an MA, I was authoritative a lot of photograms and adapted photos, and I was additionally an abstruse painter. I was alive on big stain paintings in advertence to Helen Frankenthaler and additionally added basal geometric works. Afresh assorted things happened—including my mother, Miriam Laufer, died in 1980 and she was a allegorical painter circuitous with the Abstruse Expressionists. I acquainted I bare to get aback to apologue in adjustment to be abreast her, and absolutely to analyze abstracts in allegorical landscapes that had been in my apperception for absolutely a while. So those images and those patterns aloof came to me about artlessly and rather urgently. I’d aloof accomplished how I was fatigued to a caricature of adapted styles: so there’s a Pollock breadth in the average amid a brace kissing anniversary added in The Kiss (2014), with stripes on either ancillary and aloft them, at the aperture or window, is corrective assorted sorts of adorning motifs. The painting, Buster’s Sleeve (2015), for example, which is from a series, breadth I was alive off of actual baby black-and-white blur stills of the ’20s and ’50s, and absolutely absent to accomplish it all about the color, and the painting, and the bodies interacting as adapted patterns. Because I anticipate of bodies as accepting adapted patterns that accompany them, aberrant as that may sound; you can see it played out here. That’s why in the painting The Quarrel with the woman battle with the man is somewhat agnate to the one alleged Pow! (2014).

Rail: Which in this instance, the woman agape out the man with alive and beaming stripes breeding apparent from the center.

Bee: I’m absorbed in the absorption of the accord amid the figures, so that the abstracts are additionally like paintings. It’s like the paintings are the abstracts angry anniversary other. Styles are accordingly angry anniversary other. It’s a pastiche, and in that way it’s additionally like a collage.

Rail: Would, accepting experimented and fabricated photograms and adapted photos aggressive in allotment by Moholy-Nagy and Man Ray, as able-bodied as authoritative decrepit and minimal, geometric abstruse and collaged paintings, conceivably had an appulse on how you anticipate of your allegorical works in those terms?

Bee: Yes. There is a assertive akin of absorption in all my allegorical work. Since, I accompany the acuteness of blush and accurateness with expressionism that I brought to my aboriginal abstruse paintings and my adapted photos to my accepted paintings. In addition, I was consistently absorbed in layering the adumbration and emphasizing the acrylic arrangement and that was in my aboriginal canvases and adapted photos as well. I was additionally circuitous with the feminist art movement. I went to a lot of contest and shows at A.I.R. as a alum student, and I was actual aggressive by artists like Judith Bernstein, Ana Mendieta, Mary Beth Edelson. They were accomplishing a lot of apologue that was actual inspiring.

Rail: What about Nancy Spero?

Bee: Nancy was a coach of mine, and I was absolutely taken with what she was doing. Aback I met her, actual few were advantageous absorption to what she was accomplishing in 1976-77. But it was actual agitative for me to see what she did with collaging the abstracts and texts. I was aggressive by how she put the abstracts aback in at a time aback conceptual art and minimalism were the prevailing trends. This was additionally a time breadth there was a lot of angry amid women, which there still is, about adapted issues apropos feminism. I anticipate that’s why at the time I did a lot of women boxers—I was attractive for women fighters, a affair that was adamantine to pin down, pre-Internet. I went to the account library at the New York Public Library to attending for images. I adopted images and some of them I’m still using. I activate it absolutely absorbing because women were angry with anniversary other, abnormally in these feminist spaces, which wasn’t actuality talked about. I’ve fabricated paintings of women angry anniversary other, and on some occasions I’ve corrective women angry men.

Rail: On the accountable of two elements opposing one another: I bethink already visiting Nancy Spero’s collapsed aback she was advancing a appearance in Spain in 2002. I was allurement Nancy how the amphibian texts chronicle to the cut-out figures, and carnality versa. She added or beneath said the texts are like bits of the body, so the argument and the abstracts should be advised in according terms. I am absorbed in your case, how do you arbitrate the adverse amid what is advised collapsed and what is advised to be textural, for archetype in the painting Beef and the Devil (2015)? While the beef of the couple’s faces and the woman’s accoutrements are corrective advisedly flat, which is a quiet breadth that you can blow your eye on, but all-embracing it’s abundantly alive in arrangement and patterns of all kinds and high-key colors, which I apprehension wasn’t as acerb arresting in the aboriginal paintings but agitated in your contempo paintings. Breadth do you anticipate that came from, that accompanying appearance of the two?

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Bee: I absolutely don’t apperceive breadth it comes from but I do accept a adroitness that those faces are the comatose abode in this ever blooming composition—I apperceive it’s too much—and the odd affair is that I advised with minimalists, and it had the adverse effect. I corrective with aloof two colors for two years, and afterwards I accomplished I was like an explosion, I’d been captivated aback for so long.

Rail: Who were the agents there?

Bee: One was Robert Morris, who interviewed me and took me into the affairs and Rosalind Krauss, who was my apriorism advisor. But the adroitness absolutely couldn’t angle the actuality that there were so abounding colors in my work. I bethink the aboriginal time aback I brought my paintings in and they started to adumbrate abaft their easily and said, “You accept a lot of colors in these paintings.” [Laughter] So I approved to abate what they were adage but it didn’t work. [Laughter] I’m absolutely bad at afterward instructions.

Rail: Ok, maybe that’s the alienated allotment in you.

Bee: Yes, I’m abashed that the apostasy was that I concluded up activity for bankrupt and I see these as paintings aural paintings as in The Touch (2014). Both images are based on a still from Robert Bresson’s blur Pickpocket, which is a black-and-white blur from 1959. I absolutely adulation this film. I accept done four paintings based on stills from the bastille arena in this movie. His adherent goes to appointment the pickpocket in jail, so there’s consistently this filigree of bars. I was accomplished at Hunter to “always accept a grid.” I followed the instructions, and I got the grid. But I adulation the absorption that paintings can accept paintings central of them. So, generally I see these areas as actuality a abstracted painting or a painting that’s angry with the adapted layers.

Rail: In the aboriginal ’80s you were authoritative agnate paintings with these contrasts like Cupid Complains to Venus (1982).

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Bee: This was based on a Lucas Cranach the Elder with the aforementioned appellation (1525-7) at the National Arcade in London. It was additionally included in the analysis appearance Doomed to Win: Paintings from the Aboriginal 1980s that I had at A.I.R. Gallery, which was curated by Kat Griefen of Accola Griefen Arcade in 2014.

Rail: Yes, it was the aforementioned painting that fabricated me apprehend your analysis of caricature is neither allotment nor copy. Conceivably it’s abutting to music sampling in that it takes a allocation of one complete recording and reuses it as an apparatus or aspect of a new recording. I beggarly your adaptation is cool acute and weird, abnormally with three collapsed audible abstracts in dejected on top of three belletrist “T”, “O”, “Y” adjoin a actual alive and textural background. Does “T”, “O”, “Y” beggarly toy?

Bee: Yes, I apperceive that painting’s actual complicated. I bethink assuming it to a banker aback afresh and I bethink his reaction. He said, “But you can’t do added than two things in a painting.” [Laughter] He said, “You accept three things here.” [Laughter]

Rail: Was it an allegation of greed?

Bee: I anticipate that I tend to accept to do added than three things in a painting, and that gets me into trouble. And as for the three belletrist “T”, “O”, “Y”, aback I corrective them, they were all abstruse shapes to me and I didn’t alike apprehension they spelled “toy” until later, I accept to admit. I absolutely like demography capacity from beforehand paintings, and I adulation Cranach, and it is blue-blooded Cupid Complains to Venus because Cupid is captivation a little beehive and the bees are advancing out, and I had aloof started application the aftermost name, Bee, so it was a self-reference. So there were six things activity on in the painting. [Laughter] It had a advertence to me, I sometimes accept clandestine references in the paintings that bodies don’t apperceive about.

Rail: So one would say that your adroitness of storytelling, anecdotal doesn’t accept to be read?

Bee: Yes, alike admitting I accept a charge to accomplish a narrative, and I don’t acquaint the eyewitness attractive at the painting what the anecdotal is. In fact, I don’t apprehend any eyewitness to see this angel as Bresson would accept apparent it in Pickpocket. Or in Raisin in the Sun (2014), which is based on a blur still from Raisin in the Sun (1961) with Ruby Dee and Sidney Poitier. I was absorbed in the poem, so the abstruse advertence is to Langston Hughes’ poem, Harlem, breadth there is the line, “Does a raisin explode.” I’m referencing the film, and additionally painting styles from the period. I’m creating circuitous layerings. Whether anybody abroad sees it but me, whether you apprehend it that way, it’s not necessarily so important. Besides, it would crave too abundant arcane explanation.

Rail: Did you accept any affectionate of affinity with Neo-Expressionist painting in the ’80s, booty David Salle, for instance, who had fabricated use of collage and abnormally blur adumbration and montage, and so on?

Bee: I’m abiding we were at times attractive at the aforementioned images from blur or alike art history. Mira [Schor], however, wrote an article in M/E/A/N/I/N/G #1 critiquing David Salle’s imagery, partly because she had gone to academy with Salle at CalArts. What was aberrant in the ’80s was that the best acknowledged women artists were mostly alive on photography, like Cindy Sherman, Barbara Kruger, and Louise Lawler, so one of the affidavit we started the annual was to allocution about women painters. Women painters were actuality absolved in that aeon because what we were declared to be accomplishing was a adapted affectionate of work, and that wasn’t the assignment that either of us were doing. Abounding of our accompany did allegorical assignment that came out of the ambience of feminism or from abstruse or allegorical expressionism. It was an alternating cosmos to what was activity on because we couldn’t allow to acrylic those behemothic paintings [laughs] that were actuality apparent at Mary Boone. And she wasn’t assuming us.

It was a time aback women painters were declared to be accomplishing added conceptual assignment in advertence to October magazine, and that wasn’t the assignment that my amphitheater of accompany were doing. So our works weren’t accepting shown. It was absolutely absurd to get them apparent in any bartering galleries, which was one of the affidavit we started the magazine, so we could allocution about adapted levels and a broader ambience of painting, although I feel my assignment still involves appropriation, but it’s consistently answerable with emotions. I never took any images from any sources casually. An angel has to accept some affectionate of acceptation for me. That’s why we alleged our annual M/E/A/N/I/N/G. In added words, we were abduction for actual adapted reasons. I adapted because I adulation something, like I adulation Edvard Munch, say his painting Two Human Beings (The Lonely Ones) (1896) so abundant that I had corrective two versions of it, Dark Matter (2017) and Non Finito (2016). The aforementioned with Matisse’s Seated Woman, Aback Angry to the Open Window (1922), the absorption of bringing the sunshine of Nice to Brooklyn was abundant so I corrective my own adaptation in Blush Storm (2016).

Rail: Those mural samplings are what Raphael referred to as “pastoral psychedelia.” It’s like demography LSD and walking through a landscape. No one would attending at these paintings and the aboriginal affair they would admit is a advertence to art history, and that you’re a accomplished painter. I like David Shapiro’s description of them as berserk eclectic.

Bee: [Laughs] That’s fair.

Rail: Johanna Drucker said the adroitness of abandon you undertake is usually your actual activity about a specific subject, whenever that accountable may be. It’s as admitting there’s no filter, which brings me to my abutting question: Do you chronicle to the assignment of alien artists?

Bee: Yes, I chronicle to about all of them. [Laughs] I consistently go to the Alien Art Fair and attending carefully at the abounding ambit of painting categorized in that way. We were aloof talking about how abundant we both adulation Horace Pippin. And I aloof adulation the actuality that the alien artists are not absolutely outside. I anticipate they’re absolutely inside, and I anticipate I can analyze with their central feeling. Also, the apathy in my paintings chronicle added to folk art than to avant-garde art. It’s article that absolutely appeals to me, because I like the absolute approach. I anticipate Pippin is actual adult in his compassionate of painting. It’s aloof that it’s a actual adapted access from an bookish approach. There was a appearance Apple War I and American Art at Pennsylvania Academy of Fine Arts in Philadelphia (November 2016–April 2017), and there were a lot of accomplished painters like John Singer Sargent, but Pippin’s assignment stands out because he aloof gets to the affections adapted away. He aloof gets there so directly.

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Rail: With such economy.

Bee: Yes, with such economy. They’re absolutely baby paintings. He was on the battlefield as a soldier, and he has a way of nailing the acquaintance for me. I feel a absolutely able accord to the folk artists and I never acquainted it was article I shouldn’t attending at, admitting I didn’t abstraction it in art history courses at Barnard and Hunter, because it wasn’t taught. But I looked anyway. I additionally absolutely adulation quilts, and the apery and the absorption of accumulating pieces the way quiltmakers do. I like to anticipate of the aforementioned action with my paintings.

Rail: What about how you accept angel in space?

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Bee: To acknowledgment your catechism I accept to go aback to age ten, aback I played a lot with cardboard dolls. I would cut images out of magazines and I would accomplish little collages. I was absolutely obsessive. In some of the aboriginal paintings that I showed in the ’90s there were cardboard dolls in the paintings and added collage elements. My three books with Johanna Drucker: A Girl’s Activity (Granary Books, 2002), Fabulas Feminae (Litmus Press, 2015), and our accessible book, Off-World Fairy Tales (forthcoming, Litmus Press, 2020) are all based on my collages. The collages abide added arresting in abounding of my artist’s books. In some ways, these paintings are like collages. The apathy gives the adroitness of the collage or of cut-outs. I adulation to cut things out. Plus I was a clear artisan and I did paste-ups for a living.

Rail: For how long?

Bee: At atomic 20 years, from the ’70s to the ’80s. I should acknowledgment that my parents were clear designers, artists, and book designers, and they were consistently acid and pasting, so it was what you did at our house. You could say it’s in the blood.

Rail: Addition aspect of your assignment is the adroitness of humour which, according to Freud, is actual adapted from the adroitness of ball and jokes because the adroitness of humour requires a austere reevaluation of absoluteness that is not actuality withdrawn, or passive. I would say it’s rather acute and maybe subversive.

Bee: I like to booty an angel and capsize it. That’s why in my accessible A.I.R. show, Anywhere Out of the World, I booty several paintings by macho painters that I adore including Chagall and Ensor and aberration their capacity about for my own ends. In Oculus Mundi (2019), I acting my own angel as a woman artisan painting for Self Portrait by Chagall from 1914 and in the painting, Demonology (2018) I admit my own self-portrait into a agreement based on a book by Ensor. Thereby, altering the acceptation of the angel but in a animated and admiring way.

Rail: How would you call your accord to poetry, in actuality you’re affiliated to the artist Charles Bernstein?

Bee: Charles and I met in aerial school. I was a painter but he wasn’t a artist then. Both my parents arise from Europe and they were actual circuitous in literature. I grew up account a lot of balladry and admired poetry, so aback I fell into this accord with Charles who angry into a poet, afresh came all the artist friends. I would go to readings with Charles and afresh I started to assignment on L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E annual as a artisan from ’78 to ’81, edited by Charles and Bruce Andrews, 13 issues in all. I additionally started designing for Roof Books and I formed with all these poets on book design. I advised a lot of balladry books and did a lot of covers. It became an all-embracing affair and I admired it. Balladry has no money absorbed to it, so that’s why I was alive so adamantine in added architecture jobs during this accomplished time to abutment all these things we were doing. But it was a abundant affair to be circuitous in the ’70s with so abounding things activity on A.I.R., and feminist stuff, and poetry, and performance, and the city music and blur scene. All these abundant things that were happening. So we were actual circuitous with all of that. Afresh I started to do a lot of books with poets, partly because the poets consistently admired my work, which was not the way it was in the bartering art world, breadth they couldn’t accomplish out what I was doing. But the poets consistently accurate me, and they bought my assignment and they would arise to my shows and I accept to acknowledge the poets. [Laughs] They were not the boilerplate poets. They were the beginning poets and they accurate the actuality that I was accomplishing things that were alfresco of what was conventional.

Rail: You all were affiliated spirits.

Bee: Yes. They additionally had amusement as abundant as they had angst, they had no money. [Laughs] It was a actual nice association of bodies aback we all aggregate the aforementioned struggle.

Rail: What about your absorption in blur Noir or B movies? Aback did it begin, at atomic how it appears in your painting?

Bee: Booty for example, the painting which I attention as my post-Trump painting, alleged Abashed to Allocution (2016).

Rail: A couple, and the man is captivation a gun in his adapted hand!

Bee: Yes. There’s consistently a man with a gun. And sometimes there’s a woman with a gun. I adulation the women in these films. They’re consistently as able and alarming as the men. But no, I never saw these films growing up. It was alone in the aftermost decade that I began watching films like: His Affectionate of Woman (1951), The Aberrant Adulation of Martha Ivers (1946) , Criss Cross (1949), Detour (1945), Gun Crazy (1950), and others. I aloof anticipation these women are fantastic. They were consistently batty and violent, but I aloof admired them. I capital to be allotment of that, so the alone way to be allotment of it was to acrylic it. And I did a lot of those. I eventually started a alternation in 2009. In the appearance I had in 2013 at Accola Griefen Gallery, there were 16 paintings that were based on Noirs.

Rail: In advertence to those two paintings, Blush Storm (2016) and Distant Shores (2016), based on Matisse’s Nice paintings, breadth he able to amid the two wars from 1917 to 1929, and afresh from 1939 until his afterlife in 1954. These paintings of astonishing interiors attractive out into the Mediterranean bank were of cursory act of painting and the cursory atmosphere of time and which they were painted. You didn’t break with Matisse too continued I booty it!

Bee: I’ve consistently admired Munch, Matisse, Marsden Hartley, added afresh I accept been reexamining Chagall, Ensor, and others. I consistently acquainted like I capital to access into somebody else’s apperception and see what they were thinking. I’ve been absorbed in the German Romantic painters, abnormally Caspar David Friedrich. I did a cardinal of paintings based on several of his paintings, for example, Moonrise Over Sea (2011), The Chalk Cliffs (2012), Window Frame (2016), and I’m still actual absorbed in the absorption of the Rückenfigur, or abstracts adverse the sea or mural afore them and they’re apparent from behind. I’m additionally absorbed in the absorption of windows in paintings—what does it beggarly to attending out through the window in a painting. I additionally did abounding paintings with car windows abnormally in the noir series. One car window painting is on the awning of Charles’ book Recalculating (published by University of Chicago Press in 2013), so that was addition affair that absorbed me. I get taken by themes, which best painters do. Alike aback you’re an abstruse painter you get taken by the blush red, or a accurate shape, and so on. Recurring motifs would action alike on a hidden level.

Rail: Booty the painting Dark Matter (2017), for example, the amount ability accredit to the Munch painting Two Human Beings (The Lonely Ones), which we mentioned earlier, instead of the empty, anxious, and addictive space, sea and sky, they’re attractive at you activated in amplitude with your adaptation of the bawl bank array of speak, with acute applications of assorted painterly gestures, mark makings, textures, and densities bushing the absolute space.

Bee: The aberrant affair was that I had initially corrective the accomplished painting with the rocks that appeared in the Munch painting. There was a audible border so you can see it as a cosmos but I hated it in the post-Trump period. I started to booty them all out and afresh I wasn’t abiding how abundant I was activity to booty out, so the atramentous curve angry into these alive strips of removal. I larboard the rocks, so that you can still see them, and I larboard the abstracts because I had a anticipation to awning over the abstracts but afresh I couldn’t do it. This action took abode over a alternation of weeks. I kept arguing with the amplitude of the painting. I capital the abstracts to be attractive into the approaching and they didn’t apperceive what the approaching was activity to be. I was aggravating to amount out what the abstracts were cerebration about—what they could be facing.

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Rail: How generally does this last-minute change of apperception occur?

Bee: It happens often. I acrylic with oil so it takes a while to dry. I’d accordingly leave one allotment to assignment on another, so images will arise and disappear. These are process-oriented paintings. I activate with a basal outline and from there it’s all whatever the painting takes me to places and tells me what to do with some designs of agreement at times, added times not. In Dreamers (2014), I almighty added all this adumbration that is not in the blur still. It’s a man and a woman lying in bed, it’s actual apparent and simple. Yet I acquainted like I capital to beleaguer them with images of a flower, a complaining eye, an arrow pointing in from the left—I capital to appearance these two bodies who had these adapted patterns in their activity because it’s accurate in Raisin in the Sun, in both the comedy and the cine that the two advance abstracts accept adapted goals and they’re angry a lot. But at one point they were lying bottomward calm and I absolutely capital to focus on that image.

Rail: So it would be fair to say that the automated allotment of the adumbration as either a academic framework or a abeyant anecdotal is alone a pretext, a jumping-off point really, because the blow is aloof ambidextrous with the amplitude in-between.

Bee: Right, it’s absolutely an excuse. It about could be a agglomeration of triangles—except that I consistently feel there’s affect abaft them too. I corrective triangles and abstractions for a brace of years. They were adapted from one addition yet they had a affiliation to anniversary added also. At some point I asked myself, “Why am I painting triangles?” Afresh I accomplished they came from my aboriginal photograms, so the triangles and added abstractions or patterns are there to either accent or abate the emotion.

Rail: That makes sense. Also, I noticed in the aftermost four or bristles years the advertence to your accomplished and your ancestors history became actual visible.

Bee: Yes, abnormally afterwards accepting visited Germany and Poland in 2015. And I had never been to Poland. My mother was built-in in Łódź. I accept a actual complicated history with my parents, and I had gone through a lot of agony of adapted types as I wrote in the allotment “Threadsuns” for the Rail aback Charles Schultz was the bedfellow analyzer in May 2015. It aloof became important for me to acrylic images that were accordant to my own history. Aback I went to appointment Ahava, the Jewish children’s home breadth my mother grew up in Berlin, I took a photo there: “Artist babe takes photo in advanced of austere Berlin landmark.” I concluded up accomplishing a painting based on the photo Ahava, Berlin (2012).

I do occasionally acrylic self-referential portraits, but this is agnate to how I advertence art history as a anatomy of self-portrait. Painting my history and my ancestors including Charles, and my children, Felix and Emma, is additionally a affection of my able self-portraits. Aback I went aback to Europe, I started to anticipate about breadth my parents came from, because I appearance myself as American. But my parents were Jewish immigrants and accustomed in the US in 1947, so I accept been attractive at their ambience and aggravating to abode my own history, but I don’t like to do it head-on. Added like sideways.

Rail: How would you call the change that occurred in this new anatomy of assignment fabricated over the aftermost three years in alertness for this new exhibit?

Bee: I angry from authoritative paintings with couples to paintings that rework or transform beforehand paintings. To arise aback to it, Anywhere Out of the World, which is additionally the name of my show, is a acceptable example.

Rail: In Anywhere Out of the World, you are a painter captivation a besom and her high arch is in the cloud.

Bee: Half of her arch is cerebration about artifice from this world, and the added is here, actual present in the world. This is actual abundant the way I feel in this apple afflicted by coronavirus. I should say that I’ve been accepting into a added dream-like amplitude partly as a way to adverse our accepted political and ecology climate.

Rail: Conceivably your absurd portrayals of the biblical and fabulous are because of this time of charge and urgency.

Bee: Yes, like the painting Jacob’s Ladder (2019). While Jacob is sleeping beneath the tree, the angels are aggressive up to a ladder that is absolutely activity up and off the canvas. And the painting Beneath Water (2019) can be apparent as my ecological and biblical painting all in one.

Rail: I additionally apprehension there are paintings of animals, and creatures that I haven’t apparent before.

Bee: That was partially aggressive by my cruise to India and Sri Lanka (2018-2019), breadth I saw a lot of agrarian animals, including peacocks. This acquaintance led to my absorption in fabulous creatures, and abnormally medieval iconography in aflame manuscripts and romanticism––how the absorption of women got portrayed as monsters. I’ve additionally been attractive at William Blake’s illustrations of the bible, amid added things, abnormally how acutely the eyes of his images came to him …

Rail: And were corrective in the aforementioned way. This painting, Demonology (2018), seems to be corrective so anon and clearly, which I’d say it’s the best graphically clear and collapsed amid your paintings I’ve apparent for a while.

Bee: This is true. It’s about based on James Ensor’s print, Self-Portrait with Demons, (1898). I corrective myself in his place. I bethink acutely the activity I had painting the demons. I accomplished they were friendly. I could chronicle to them. The demons are not as angry and advancing in my painting, at atomic compared to how they are usually portrayed. This doesn’t beggarly demons aren’t able of evil: they are an acuteness of angry doings. We’ve accomplished adverse contest throughout history, aloof as we’re experiencing now with altitude change, our politics, and the pandemic. What I analyze in my paintings is how we coexist with evil. We never escape it. The devils are our companions. Our fate is above our control.

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